tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post3301426008699545143..comments2023-05-19T01:40:20.508-07:00Comments on Mike Erich - The Mad Theologian: The Ivory Tower GodMike Erich the Mad Theologianhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-70661093588604366602014-10-30T05:02:36.324-07:002014-10-30T05:02:36.324-07:00A very simple and straightforward analogy Mike. Bu...A very simple and straightforward analogy Mike. But I am okay to agree to disagree.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-22175721373087336172014-10-29T20:27:06.536-07:002014-10-29T20:27:06.536-07:00I am not sure I fully understand your analogy, but...I am not sure I fully understand your analogy, but perhaps it is better to leave this one here. We have to a large extent worn the subject out.Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-52550362356585859022014-10-29T06:00:23.164-07:002014-10-29T06:00:23.164-07:00"What is meant by providence or God's wor...<i>"What is meant by providence or God's working things together for good mean if He does not control events? Could you clarify?"</i><br /><br />Does not a Chess Grand Master anticipate the moves of a novice? Is he not able to counter each move that the novice makes? How much more does God, who exists outside of time, anticipate and counter human actions?<br /><br />That said, it is doubtful that I could say anything more to help you understand where I am coming from.<br /><br />And perhaps we have exhausted every means possible in this medium to express our views? Maybe it is best to simply agree to disagree?kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-6699807447981182792014-10-28T21:57:00.912-07:002014-10-28T21:57:00.912-07:00I understand the basic free will argument and whil...I understand the basic free will argument and while I do not believe God being in control of human choices makes them robots, I understand the concept. But I do not see how God's eliminating suffering, the consequences of evil choices or even natural events makes people robots. In all this discussion I get the feeling there is something you are assuming that I am not grasping. It is not simply that I disagree, though I suspect I would, but I am not sure I understand where you are coming from. <br /><br />What is meant by providence or God's working things together for good mean if He does not control events? Could you clarify?Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-83682026594885379142014-10-28T06:47:54.799-07:002014-10-28T06:47:54.799-07:00Is there some force that He cannot control? No but...Is there some force that He cannot control? No but he has chosen not to control the actions of humans but to give us dominion over the earth. This delegated sovereignty/dominion has created much suffering. But without it we would be robots and not people made in his image. And in rare instances he overrules our sovereignty and works in miraculous ways. <br /><br />All that said, I feel that our desire to see God as a sovereign micro-manager has blinded us to the wonders of his providence. Though people mistreat us, his providential care comforts us. Though people plan evil against us, he stands with us working through us and the saints to cause all things to work together for good. kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-4130842034627161602014-10-27T21:25:58.519-07:002014-10-27T21:25:58.519-07:00Is there than some power in the universe that is g...Is there than some power in the universe that is greater than God? Some force He cannot control. I do not find that comforting, but frightening. . <br /><br />I do not see God has the immediate cause of evil, but One who is bigger than evil and could do away with it if He chose to. To relieve Him of responsibility you seem to be making Him helpless.Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-43497745274871151842014-10-27T09:12:28.220-07:002014-10-27T09:12:28.220-07:00"God has a purpose for putting me through suf..."God has a purpose for putting me through suffering even if I do not understand it."<br /><br />God is not putting you (or me) through suffering Mike. Why blame him for your flooded basement simply because the rain fell. Why blame him for ebola when the origins of the disease had nothing to do with God? Why see him as the psychopathic oppressor who comforts the one suffering from his abuse? Why malign the image of God in this way?kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-74041928468479975712014-10-26T20:20:48.757-07:002014-10-26T20:20:48.757-07:00I did not say such things are good but God causes ...I did not say such things are good but God causes them to work together for . But I do not see how these things can work together for good unless they in spite of being evil can have a good effect on our lives. Scripture repeatedly says they do (Romans 8:28; 5:3-5; James 1:2-4).<br /><br />I certainly agree we should trust God in time of suffering. But for me that trust is grounded in the idea that God has a purpose for putting me through suffering even if I do not understand it. What trust am I supposed to have in a God who has no purpose in suffering, but nonetheless refuses to eliminate it?Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-44421939084566586142014-10-26T06:05:35.292-07:002014-10-26T06:05:35.292-07:00I simply cannot call things like cancer, child abu...I simply cannot call things like cancer, child abuse and genocide good. I cannot enter into such rationalization. Cannot see scriptural support for calling evil good. So I will continue to thank God 'in' all things but not 'for' all things.<br /><br />Regarding miracles, no one really knows why they are so few in number. But I do know that God is not a genie in a bottle and prayer is not like rubbing Aladdin's lamp. We pray and he works according to his own will. And in the mean time we are called to trust Him with all of our heart and not rely on our own rationalizations.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-7298898508848221832014-10-25T13:59:25.678-07:002014-10-25T13:59:25.678-07:00"How does cancer, child abuse, or genocide ma..."How does cancer, child abuse, or genocide make anyone a better person?"<br /><br />It can if we trust God though it. Our problem is we have too much self-dependence. It would be nice if we could learn to be dependent on God in good times, but we seldom do. Therefore we need suffering to make us put aside our pride and cause us to trust in God. This is not a cliche, but something I have found true in my own life, over and over again.<br /><br />I was not so much thinking of miracles, but of God designing us and the creation in such a way as to avoid suffering. I would agree God seldom does miracles, but I believe that is because God has a purpose in our suffering and therefore does not generally remove it by doing miracles. But I see no reason why God could not frequently work miracles if it suited His purpose. If God had no purpose in suffering, I see no reason why He would not frequently work miracles if that is what it took to avoid it.Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-27062903403625411182014-10-24T05:14:25.607-07:002014-10-24T05:14:25.607-07:00"As I said before God allows bad things to ha...<i>"As I said before God allows bad things to happen to godly people to make them better people."</i><br /><br />How does cancer, child abuse, or genocide make anyone a better person?<br /><br />Methinks that you are speaking at the cliche level and not in agreement with me at all.<br /><br /><i>"But you seem to think that God cannot control even the inanimate creation to remove suffering."</i><br /><br />My point was that miracles are not the norm. God can do anything but rarely does miracles.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-15824189182874879082014-10-23T20:53:52.452-07:002014-10-23T20:53:52.452-07:00I do not question that God has allowed people to c...I do not question that God has allowed people to choose which has resulted in sin. I just do not see what the difference between your statement and mine. They seem to be different ways of saying the same thing.<br /><br />As I said before God allows bad things to happen to godly people to make them better people. He allows good things to happen to moral people that they may realize their morality is not enough. He allows bad people to avoid immediate punishment to give them opportunity to repent. But we are all sinners and none of us except Jesus (who undertook it voluntarily) can claim we are so righteous that we do not deserve to suffer. And none of us (by God's grace) receive in this life everything we deserve in terms of suffering. But God uses the things we do suffer to serve His purposes in our lives and those purposes are higher and more complicated then simply giving us everything we deserve for if He did apart from God's forgiveness we would all be destroyed. <br /><br />But you seem to think that God cannot control even the inanimate creation to remove suffering. I do not see why this should be so. I do not think the Henry Ford analogy is a good one, because Ford is limited in power and knowledge and God is not. I do agree that suffering happens to the faithful. But it makes more sense to me to believe God has a purpose in it then that He simply cannot stop it.<br /><br />(For the record I did read your pastor's article. I did not see that it contributed anything beyond what had already been said.) Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-3165153553134112522014-10-23T07:06:52.534-07:002014-10-23T07:06:52.534-07:00We are made in the image of God and therefore are ...We are made in the image of God and therefore are endowed with the divine ability of choice. Commensurate with that endowment humans often sin. In my view one cannot blame God for wrong doing simply because he gave humans the ability to choose to do good (love) or to do bad (hate). Do you believe that God should have made us like robots with only the ability to love? Do you question the idea that we are made in his image? Are you upset because God's creation is not perfect? <br /><br />And if I am hearing you correctly, you think that God could have done a better job when he created the earth. You seem to think that God uses natural phenomena like rain (which occasionally causes floods) to bring divine judgment on humanity. I reject this for the simple reason that both the faithful and the faithless are affected by such natural phenomena. The post by our pastor speaks more to that idea if you are interested.<br /><br />I make a distinction between God creating humans (and the earth) and the bad things that happen. Of course, I imagine that it is possible to blame Henry Ford for all of the traffic fatalities simply because he created the first car. I imagine that he felt that he was blessing humanity and never imagined that he would be blamed when automobiles killed people.<br /><br />And yet I can hear you thinking that Ford is not sovereign and cannot be blamed. And yet, bad things have always happened to the faithful. And folks often mock God by blaming him for allowing such things. In my view, miraculous intervention is not the norm. Perhaps you feel that miracles are the norm? I accept that the rain falls on the faithful and the faithless. Prayers are unanswered. The difference in my view is that the faithful have the presence and power of the Holy Spirit to help them when God does not miraculously intervene. We who name the name of Jesus are able to relate to suffering people and witness godly character to them simply because the proverbial rain falls on us. We are not called to escape suffering but to be a shining light to the lost when we do suffer.<br /><br />So why shake our fists and blame God simply because the rain falls?kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-57557774832270344262014-10-22T20:51:44.240-07:002014-10-22T20:51:44.240-07:00I do understand the difference between allowing pe...I do understand the difference between allowing people to sin and endowing them with choice. Can you clarify.<br /><br />I do not see how the tectonic plates are any explanation at all. Was God somehow forced to create the world with tectonic plates and was there no other way to create it. And is it impossible for God to somehow shield us from their effect. Why? If we lived in a world where people consistently followed God would it still be a world full of suffering, pain and death? Could a good God create such a world?Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-31720875771909957482014-10-22T16:37:05.402-07:002014-10-22T16:37:05.402-07:00A clip from our pastor:
"Why did the earthqu...A clip from our pastor:<br /><br />"Why did the earthquake and tsunami occur in Japan? Was it the act of an angry God? No, it was the result of the movement and collision of the earth's tectonic plates -- a process driven by the earth's need to regulate its own internal temperature. Without the process that creates earthquake, our planet could not sustain life. "<br /><br />Suggest you read his piece at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-hamilton/was-japans-earthquake-the_b_837324.html<br /><br />The idea of God "letting people sin" is an allusion to God as a micromanager - a concept that I have previously discussed ... a more accurate way to describe it is that God "endowed people (made in his image) with choice".kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-62817069677428182632014-10-20T20:22:46.316-07:002014-10-20T20:22:46.316-07:00Again, how does the choices of our ancestors and c...Again, how does the choices of our ancestors and contemporaries affect earthquakes, hurricanes and disease?<br />And if God does not have a purpose in it, why does He let the affects of our choices harm others. Granted it would be frustrating to the shooter if bullets just bounced off. But it would not take away his free choice. Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-23685539419701479272014-10-20T09:10:51.919-07:002014-10-20T09:10:51.919-07:00Suffering as something that comes from within crea...Suffering as something that comes from within creation is the kind that comes from the choices of our ancestors and our contemporaries.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-58123569009727506452014-10-19T19:55:07.342-07:002014-10-19T19:55:07.342-07:00I am not clear what you are referring to.could you...I am not clear what you are referring to.could you explain?Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-30997911097977736402014-10-18T15:29:12.222-07:002014-10-18T15:29:12.222-07:00I think that you know what it means as you touch o...I think that you know what it means as you touch on it in your post. And I am not sure why you feel a need to question the way that God made the earth just because it does not fit into your idea of sovereignty.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-28210372062976015982014-10-18T14:03:32.532-07:002014-10-18T14:03:32.532-07:00"I see suffering as something that comes from..."I see suffering as something that comes from within creation and not from the Creator." <br /><br />I am sorry but I have no idea whatsoever what this means. I understand the idea of God allowing moral evil to allow people the ability to choose. I even understand idea, though I do not agree with it, of God not controlling human choices out of respect for their free will. But why would God defer to tectonic plates. Why would the creation not behave the way the Creator intended it to behave, if it has no will to rebel against Him. Is God somehow subject to the physical laws which for some reason require suffering. Is there something or someone greater than God that He has to answer to.<br /><br />I understand, though again I do not agree, with the idea of God surrendering His sovereignty over human beings so they can make free choices. But I see no reason He should surrender His sovereignty over the inanimate, material universe or who He would surrender it to. Can you explain? Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-39440728858592092772014-10-17T07:28:36.751-07:002014-10-17T07:28:36.751-07:00"But I would understand suffering being in th...<i>"But I would understand suffering being in the world as a result of God's judgment on moral evil."</i><br /><br />I see suffering as something that comes from within creation and not from the Creator. Why blame God for cancer?<br /><br /><i>"Surely God could prevent us from being harmed by others evil choices."</i><br /><br />The fact that he does not support the idea that he has chosen to limit his sovereignty in the world.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-14178462200770888502014-10-16T19:30:30.880-07:002014-10-16T19:30:30.880-07:00I do not know whether this clarify things or not, ...I do not know whether this clarify things or not, but I see two major things involved under the heading of evil. One is evil human choices and the other is evil events, what I would call suffering. This can be the results of human action, for instance being shot by a bank robber, or natural forces, a hurricane for instance. Now I can understand moral evil existing because God allows people to make choices. But I would understand suffering being in the world as a result of God's judgment on moral evil. Now once it exists it may not always be fair. God may allow bad things to happen to good people to make them better people. He may allow bad things to happen to outwardly moral people to show them they need Him. He may hold off judgment from obviously evil people to give them an opportunity to repent. But seeing it as a result of God's judgment on sin is the only way without resorting to the end justifying the means I can explain its existence.<br /><br />Surely God could prevent us from being harmed by others evil choices. He could make the bullets vanish or make us invulnerable like Superman. He could even find a way to change the physical laws so He would not have to be constantly working miracles. The fact that He does not indicates to me that He has a purpose for the existence of suffering in the world. Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-90980462093131998192014-10-16T07:43:13.607-07:002014-10-16T07:43:13.607-07:00A lot of issues there Mike. I will try to address ...A lot of issues there Mike. I will try to address each.<br /><br />1) God is the architect of the universe. Things like earthquakes and hurricanes have scientific explanations. No need to blame God for calamities because he designed the earth to have the ability to release built up pressure. Also hard to blame him for folks who build their houses in places that are prone to such events or do not take precautions when. We are no longer ignorant of such things and should not embrace simplistic theologies concerning calamities.<br /><br />2) If you believe that God allows humans to make choices (i.e. exercise sovereignty) then we may not be that far off. I think of myself as a violinist in a great orchestra playing a beautiful symphony. I (humans) have a role as the musician, the conductor (governments and corporate groups) have a role as one who leads the musicians and the composer (God) has the greatest role in determining the notes, tempo and melody. Imperfect example but perhaps it communicates the idea?<br /><br />3) You and I have different views of judgment. I see it as a means to restoration and reconciliation. You see it as a means to punish.<br /><br />4) I take no issue with God withholding judgment for the sake of love.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-56260557600909810252014-10-15T20:41:06.150-07:002014-10-15T20:41:06.150-07:00What about natural calamities that are not the res...What about natural calamities that are not the result of human action?<br /><br />I agree that has allowed humans to make choices and be responsible for those choices and does not cause them to make those choices. But I do believe that as Scripture repeatedly teaches that Gods controls those events to serve His purpose. I do not see how we can get out of the problem of God being responsible simply by having Him not in control of events. The charge here of neglect seems hard to avoid. The only answer I have is that God's judgment requires sin to have consequences and His love holds off the full impact of judgment to give time for people to repent. This implies that God is in control or events are not the result of God's love or judgment but simply accidents. I do not claim to know how this balances out in every case, for instance why God did not zap Hitler. But if God works miracles and I agree He does, I do not see any reason other then the balance of love and judgment He does not intervene to prevent all evil events. Mike Erich the Mad Theologianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04682504413797395786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7995252502628895189.post-85278468435631319672014-10-15T10:21:34.354-07:002014-10-15T10:21:34.354-07:00Never said God is not in control of the universe. ...Never said God is not in control of the universe. That said, I believe that he is not in control of the actions that humans make. He ceded dominion to humans over some earthly things. Even so, he works in and through us to work things together for our good. He even does the miraculous in response to our prayers and gifts. Yet he is not controlled by humans as he answers our prayers according to his will. I find this view to be representative of an image of God that is both good and loving.kc bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17440862813109808755noreply@blogger.com