He glorifies Christ most who takes most from him, and who then gives most back to him. Come, empty pitcher, come and be filled; and, when thou art filled, pour all out at the dear feet of him who filled thee. Come, trembler, come and let him touch thee with his strengthening hand, and then go out and work, and use the strength which he has given thee.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, 1834-1892, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, Christ's Pastoral Prayer for his People, A Sermon (No. 2331), On Lord's-day Evening, September 1st, 1889.
Do we need to be filled by God to give back to Him? How does that affect how we serve Him?
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Interesting quote. I am not an advocate of predeterminism (not sure that Spurgeon was) but it seems like it could be an example of circular reasoning. Here is my feeble thought process ...
ReplyDelete1) God first saves and fills one apart from anything they do.
2) God the Spirit causes the that person to give back to God and the person is not involved.
Not sure that I am making sense. Guess my concern is a picture of God that seems to be a bit self-serving as He only saves to get something back.
But I may really be missing the point. Have done that before. ツ
I cannot of course claim to know Spurgeon's thought process. My point in posting the quote was to point out that we cannot serve God except through the power God gives us.
DeleteI was not seeing the issue as being Calvinism.
But since it has been brought up I do think Calvinism at all means that salvation is apart from anything we do and we are not involved. I would say we are clearly involved both in salvation and living for Christ. Calvinism says that what we do is a result of God's sovereign plan and His working in us, but that does not mean that what we do or what we choose is relevant. Spurgeon is not around for me to consult him but I think he would agree with me on this.
As for God merely be selfish, I would say that God does not need us, He chose to create us and save us out of love for us. Under any theology He gets glory out of this, but it is not as though our service is something He needs.
" I would say we are clearly involved both in salvation and living for Christ."
ReplyDeleteOn that we agree! But I wonder if we also agree that God has given all of us the ability to be involved in these things? If not, then I would argue that our involvement in these things is pretty superficial.
It is easy to get confused based on words on this type of complicated subject. But my understanding is that no one comes to God apart from His working in their lives. But this is a working in and through their wills resulting in their making the right choices in which they are totally involved. This is not superficial, but a fundamental change from the inside out. But I am not sure if I have really spoken to your objection.
DeleteSo we are in agreement that all have the God given ability to say yes to the gospel?
DeleteAs I have stated before I do believe God does choose who will be saved, but I believe it is through an internal change in which they are fully involved and not something superficial.
DeleteSo then, all have not the God given ability to say yes to the gospel? If that is the case then I do not see how the one who says yes to the gospel message can be said to be fully involved if they do not have the option of rejecting the message. It seems that they are not in control of their will at that point but are merely reacting in a robotic pre-programmed fashion.
DeleteI would say that God works inside the individual to though their deepest inner self to change them and that what results is not robotic, but is a deep expression of who they are and their real choices.
DeleteI agree with that Mike. My point is that a person must have the ability to accept or reject God's work or they are not really "clearly involved" as you previously indicated. It speaks to me of our involvement in election.
DeleteI would say a person has a choice to accept or reject, but God determines what that choice will be. Part of the question involved may be what is meant by ability. I would say everyone has the capacity to choose either option but apart from God's working in their life they are not willing to come to Him.
Delete"I would say a person has a choice to accept or reject, but God determines what that choice will be."
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be saying that God makes the choice and not the person.
"apart from God's working in their life they are not willing to come to Him."
No problem with that as I believe that God is working in everyone's life. Some respond to His love and some reject it. Even so, God is not making accept or reject.
I would say both God and the person make a choice, but the person's choice is the result of God's choice. I do not claim to know how God does this but I do not believe it is purely mechanical.
DeleteI would say God the Spirit convicts and the person responds. Their response is their own and there is no divine coercion or manipulation. That is what happened to me and suspect that is what happens to others. Some say yes and some say no. God cannot be blamed for either the yes or the no.
DeleteI am well aware of both perspectives on this. To me the bottom line is what the Scripture teaches. I just do not think it can be settled by making the issue to be if God chooses, we are simply passive.
DeleteI will agree to disagree with you on that. ツ
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