And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Clement of Rome, ?- 99 AD, First Epistle to the Corinthians, 32, (The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, Philip Schaff, Wm B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2001, p. 23)
How important is it that our salvation is not based on us? How should it affect how we live?
Free Stuff Fridays (Zondervan Reflective)
2 hours ago
I am so happy for the gift of faith. But I wonder, is it really a gift if I cannot refuse it?
ReplyDeleteFaith has I see it is primarily a choice. You can refuse to make the choice, but once you have been given the gift of faith you are beyond the point of refusal.
DeleteDo not understand Mike. Are you saying faith is a choice or a gift or both? Please elaborate further.
ReplyDeleteI would say both. That God gives us the gift of faith, but it is nonetheless our choice. I do not claim to know how He brings that about, but I am convinced both are true.
DeleteYou are sounding like an Armenian. :)
DeleteNo, I believe that how a Calvinist should sound. There are real choices but God is in control of them.
DeleteYour last two comments seem very illogical. How can it be "our choice" if "God is in control" of the choice?
ReplyDeleteThe entity that you describe comes across as a middle manager manipulating his workers rather than a sovereign king ruling over his subjects.
I do not claim to be able to explain how God can control choices and have them still be choices, but I see it as something only God can do.
DeleteI really do not get the analogy of middle manager. Certainly any idea he has he can control the choices of the people under him is simply conceit. It sounds more like a bad middle manager then a reasonable one. God is in no way analogous to such a person.
"I see it as something only God can do"
ReplyDeleteI may be wrong, but I think that you go to that place a lot in our discussions. I feel that you do not see God's creation as something that is consistent and reflective of God. You seem to paint a huge dichotomy between God and his creation.
For instance you sometimes paint a picture where the goodness of God is not consistent with what is revealed in his creation as good. You refuse to call something like genocide evil and think that it can be good because a human being said that God commanded them to murder innocents. In doing so you present God as an inconsistent entity that changes with people, places and time. Such a God could not have commanded us to not commit murder but would have said do not murder unless he orders us to murder.
In this post you seem to feel that humans created in his image do not reflect the image of God at all because the choice that humans have is just an illusion. In this you subtly blame God for the evil done by humans who make bad choices because their choices were not theirs at all. I think that you malign the character of God by calling evil human choices good since humans do not really have choices at all.
And when confronted with the illogic of your position you play the "God can do whatever he wants" card instead of having a rational conversation about what you think the words 'good' and 'choice' mean. In this you do not acknowledge the basic definitions of words. Not much I can counter, except to say that I see no point in having a discussion if you feel a need to counter logic with theological absurdity.
All this said, I hope that my bluntness has not offended you. I enjoy our discussions but have to admit that comments such as your last one frustrate me.
If you want to be blunt I will be blunt. I do not want to offend you but you seem to be determined put things as pointedly as possible. The problem is you have no respect whatsoever for Scripture. Not any part of it including the sayings of Jesus. If anything does not happen to fit your definition you throw it out. You can talk about paper popes and whatever you want, but if there is no determinable revelation of God we are left back with the Greek philosophers who knew almost nothing about God. I simply do not believe that human reason is adequate, by itself to understand God.
DeleteI do not claim to know how God can control evil events without being the cause of evil. I do not know how light can be particles and waves either. I only know that this is clearly taught in Scripture from beginning to end and even most Arminians admit to it in broad principle.
But your alternative seems to me to have even more serious problems. You say God is not in any way in control of suffering, but you won't give any reason for why it exists. The free will defense does not adequately answer this. It does not explain ebola, cancer, earthquakes, tornadoes or even why bullets do not bounce off us. You say God has delegated control to us but I do not see how any of this is something we directly produce. You say my I don't knows are frustrating, but you keep ducking the issue. At least I admit my ignorance.
Again as I said before I do not buy your definition of good. I do not see how any definition of good can be derived from the current fallen creation. But I do maintain that my understanding is not anomalous. but is what most people of most times have maintained. The good without justice (as I understand it and not according to your redefinition), that evil should be punished, is not good. That to allow people to unrepentantly kill babies to their idols, oppress the poor and downtrodden, without consequences is wrong. Again this is what Scripture teaches all the way through.
The problem with this whole discussion is we seem to no common premises we can agree on including our understanding of the teachings of Jesus. Where do you think we should go from here?
"this is clearly taught in Scripture"
ReplyDeleteI do not agree with that statement. I see the views you and I espouse as different understandings and interpretations of the biblical text. I respect your views and have learned from the things that you have written. I come to your blog because I love the discussion. The things we dialog about make me think.
"The problem is you have no respect whatsoever for Scripture.
On that I strongly disagree and suggest that someone can hold a different view from your own and still respect the bible. You may disagree but it is a fact that one can hold a view that does not espouse inerrancy or literalism and still love and respect the bible.
Regarding common premises we can agree on, I love this quote from John Wesley.
“Though we cannot think alike, may we not love alike? May we not be of one heart, though we are not of one opinion? Without all doubt, we may. Herein all the children of God may unite, notwithstanding these smaller differences.”
It is obvious that I have offended you. I should not have offered such blunt words. For that I apologize and am really sorry. Though we have never met I have a love for you, your deep and sincere relationship with Jesus and your love for the scriptures. The last thing I want to do is offend you with my comments.
In the future I will read your blog but probably not comment as much. My heart is not to discourage you or to argue over the bible. I do not want to be a part of bringing the worst out of each other but hope we can find ways to challenge each that would be honoring to God and provoke each other to love and good deeds.
Lastly, in this season of thanksgiving, I want you to know that your blog is one of the things that I give thanks for.
Blessings, Bob
I apologize also for my bluntness. I want you to know you are always you are always welcome to comment at my blog. But I felt we had reached a point where I really needed to be frank. There seem to be a few key issues that are so emotionally charged that we cannot come to an agreement on the them and we seem to be just antagonizing each other by discussing them and maybe we just need to avoid them. I do consider you my friend and I respect your position, but I do not know if there is any profit in continuing to pursue these particular issues.
DeleteBlessings Mike
I wanted to add that I have enjoyed many of our discussions and they have helped me to clarify my own views or at least see where I was unclear. It is just the this particular discussion has reached the part where it tends to generate more heat than light.
ReplyDelete