Friday, June 19, 2015

A Voice from the Past - Luther

For no one can know, much less follow, Christ by flesh and blood; the Father in heaven must rather reveal him. as happened here to St. Peter. This is also indicated when he asks what the people are saying about him and no sure and settled answer was given, but only various unsettled opinions and fancies of the people were recounted. This shows that without the grace of one wavers to and fro and has only an inconstant notion of God, until the Father reveals it; then a person knows what Christ is.

Martin Luther, 1483-1546; Sermon on the Festival of St. Peter and St. Paul in Leipzig, (translated by John W. Doberstein, Luther's Works, edited by Helmut T. Lehmann, Sermons I, Vol. 51, p. 57).

Does God have to work in us for us to come to Him? What is the implication of this for our lives?
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17 comments:

  1. kc bobJune 19, 2015 at 9:10 AM

    God is responsible to reveal. We are responsible to respond.

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  2. kc bobJune 21, 2015 at 8:07 PM

    My view is that we are not God's pawns. But I do understand that some think that we are. :)

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  3. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJune 22, 2015 at 7:01 PM

    I do not believe God being in control of the world makes us mere pawns. But more then that I believe that a work of God in our hearts is necessary for us to response to Him. (I have removed your duplicate comments that I presume were created by accident)

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  4. kc bobJune 23, 2015 at 5:27 AM

    Does "God being in control of the world" mean that he is also in control of our decisions?

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    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJune 24, 2015 at 5:15 PM

      I would say God controls what our decisions will be, but they are nonetheless real decisions. How that fits together I do not claim to be able to explain.

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  5. kc bobJune 25, 2015 at 6:09 AM

    Perhaps that 'unexplainable' divine control extend to the decisions to perpetrate evil acts? Or does he only 'control' decions to do good? If so, then is he really in control of decisions at all?

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    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJune 26, 2015 at 8:30 PM

      God does not cause or force people to make evil decisions. He does however in a way beyond human understanding direct them to serve His purposes. I do not see this as encouraging or approving bad decisions but restraining them. He takes them in spite of the intentions of the agents and uses them for good.

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    2. kc bobJune 27, 2015 at 5:45 AM

      "beyond human understanding"

      Well that's one way to end a discussion. I will try to remember that when I cannot defend my theology. :)

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    3. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJune 27, 2015 at 7:37 PM

      All I can say is that there are many things in theology that are clearly beyond human understanding from the trinity to the incarnation. I would have to question whether a God I could totally understand was not a God of my own creation.

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    4. kc bobJune 28, 2015 at 8:32 AM

      Beyond understanding. Maybe. Beyond explanation. Not so much. Theology is all about explaining things not understandable.

      For example, I may not be able to understand the Trinity but I can explain why I believe in the theology of it by expounding the scriptures. If I am not able to that then I really do not have a theology of the Trinity at all.

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    5. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJune 28, 2015 at 7:37 PM

      I agree with what you say, but as I have repleted pointed out in the past I am convinced that God being in control of the world is repeated and clearly taught in Scriptures. I may try to understand it, but I do not believe I am allowed to set it aside because I am unable to do so completely.

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    6. kc bobJune 29, 2015 at 6:58 AM

      I do not want to discuss the specific issue as we have exhausted that in our previous exchanges. My interest is more in a theology of sovereignty that is "beyond understanding". Can you point me to other theologians that use such verbiage when speaking of divine sovereignty?

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    7. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJune 29, 2015 at 8:15 PM

      Other than the apostle Paul, who is a writer of Scripture, my chief influence in this is John Calvin. I do not know he used those precise words, but he repeatedly spoke of the mysteries involved in divine providence (his word) and rebuked those who would try to fully understand it intellectually. I could try to come up with others, but he is the one that comes to mind.

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  6. kc bobJuly 1, 2015 at 6:51 AM

    There are mysteries to many things but I do not see sovereignty as one of them. Yet I do understand that many do. Roman Catholics, for example, invoke mystery to explain transubstantiation.

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    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianJuly 1, 2015 at 8:23 PM

      I am convinced there are many things regarding the nature of God and His ways that are a mystery to our human understanding. As for transubstantiation, I believe the exact way that Christ is present in the supper is never clearly explained in Scripture. I do not know whether that makes my view more a mystery or less a mystery than the Roman Catholics.

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  7. kc bobJuly 2, 2015 at 9:33 AM

    I did post something on the idea of mystery yesterday. Thanks for prompting me to think about the topic.

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