The New Testament writers speak as if Christ's achievement in raising from the dead was the first event of its kind in the whole history of the universe. He is the 'first-fruits', the 'pioneer of life'. He has forced open a door that has been locked since the death of the first man. He has met, fought, and beaten the King of Death. Everything is different because He has done so. This is the beginning of the New Creation: a new chapter in cosmic history has opened.
C. S. Lewis, 1898-1963, Miracles, 16: Miracles of the New Creation (HarperOne, 1996, pp. 236-237)
What are the implications of Christ's resurrection being a cosmic event? How does it impact our life today?
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I wonder what he means by the phrase: "cosmic history"?
ReplyDeletePart of the problem with quoting people is it is hard to be exactly what they mean. What I meant by cosmic event and what I was getting at by quoting Lewis is that the resurrection was a new thing is this history of the universe and bears with it the promise of our resurrection. Whether that is precisely what Lewis meant by cosmic history I do not know.
DeleteWhat do you think of the way that Enoch or Elijah left the earth? Seems like (if the stories are literally true) these two had pretty amazing departures from planet earth in which they never died. One might say that these wrote a new chapter in cosmic history?
ReplyDeleteThat is a interesting question and these are certainly important events. I do not think they are on the same level as Christ's resurrection because:
ReplyDeleteThey affected only the individual people involved, but Christ's resurrection obtained resurrection for the rest of us.
I am convinced that the translations of Enoch and Elijah where done in anticipation of Christ's resurrection which ultimately makes them possible.
But while I do believe Christ's resurrection is the central event, I will admit cosmic history is not always as neat and straightforward as one might like it to be. I can live with that.
I am not sure that the cosmos was changed when Jesus came out of the grave. I only know that people like you and me were changed forever when the Resurrected One came into our lives.
ReplyDeleteHappy Easter Mike from your friend in KC!
I will agree with you on the second half of that statement anyway.
DeleteHappy Easter to you too, Bob
Hard to see how the cosmos was changed by the resurrection of Jesus apart from the ways that it affected humans. The sun still rose in the east and set in the west. Gravity still seemed to be working. The only provable difference is the impact that the resurrection had on timid people who thought their friend had died. These people and the millions who were touched by their message changed life on planet earth. Apart from that I do not see any other change in the cosmos that could possibly match this.
ReplyDeletePart of the problem is I am not sure that what you and Lewis and I mean by cosmic is necessarily the same thing. To make it worse I do not feel strongly committed to a word the I ultimately borrowed from Lewis.
ReplyDeleteI do not mean here by cosmic some change in the basic laws of science. Jesus' resurrected body did seem to be capable of things our bodies do not normally do. But I expect that has more to do with the nature of the body than a change in the laws of nature. I also believe that the resurrection makes possible the Second Coming and the renewal of the earth, but I do not see that this necessarily involves any changes in the physical laws (though I suppose God could change them if He chose to).
I do not know if this is even relevant but I would (along with Lewis) hold that I do not know what other races may exist in the universe or what God's dealings with them are.
But I do believe the resurrection is the basis of the salvation of the human race. And I would consider the salvation of even one race to be an event of cosmic significance. But I really do not care that much about the precise meaning of the word cosmic. But I am not sure if that is the real issue of merely a rabbit trail.
"the resurrection is the basis of the salvation of the human race"
ReplyDeleteDoes that include the OT saints?
I would say yes, that they were saved in anticipation of what Christ would do. That they had faith in the promised seed that would come to conquer death.
DeleteI guess the 'normal' OT saints were a lot smarter than some of the 'normal' NT saints that had no clue about what Christ would do. Of course the 'normal' OT saints were the ones in the NT that adamantly believed that the Messiah would bring deliverance from Rome and not from their sin. So, I guess I am having a hard time seeing anyone anticipating of what Christ would do.
ReplyDeleteBut I have heard people espouse that view many times before. Maybe if we say it enough times people will think that it is in the bible. :)
It is difficult to know exactly what the 'normal' NT or OT saint believed. But while the NT saints seemed to be looking for a conquering Messiah, He was not seen as devoid of all spiritual implications. John the Baptist announced the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world and people followed Jesus based on that (John 1:36,37). Zacharias John's father spoke of deliverance from their enemies, but also the forgiveness of sin (Luke 1:77). Peter characterizes Jesus as the one with the words of eternal life (John 6:68).
DeleteI am not saying they clearly understood things. They clearly did not. Nor am I saying the OT Testament saints clearly understood things. There faith may in some cases have amounted to God is going to work this out somehow. I am not saying their faith understood all about the resurrection, certainly the NT saints were clueless on the specifics. I am am simply saying that their faith was fulfilled in the resurrection.
"I am am simply saying that their faith was fulfilled in the resurrection."
ReplyDeleteWhat does it mean to have their faith fulfilled?
They were expecting God to something about the problem of sin and death. They may not have been clear on exactly what God was going to do, but they trusted Him to do it. The resurrection along with the cross was the fulfillment of that promise.
DeleteDo you believe the OT saints were saved and if so what were they saved by?
"They were expecting God to something about the problem of sin and death."
ReplyDeleteWho are the they? Maybe a few OT names or OT references would be helpful?
I do believe that many in the OT were born of the Spirit. Jesus told Nicodemus (an old covenant guy) that he should have known about spiritual birth,
It is difficult to know exactly how much the ordinary people knew, but the prophets where quite clear on the subject:
DeleteIsaiah 25:8; 40:2; 43:25; 44:22; 53:4-6; 53:10-12
Jeremiah 31:31-34; 33:8
Ezekiel 34:33
Daniel 12:1-3
Hosea 13:12-14
As I mentioned Zacharias and John the Baptist and Peter seemed to have picked up on this.
I agree the Old Testament saints were born again. My question is what did they do in connection with this. In the New Testament it is connected to believing in Christ (John 3:16-18), I would expect in OT times it was similar.
Thanks for providing those references Mike. As I read through those verses you shared I do see where you are coming from. Folks certainly could read Isaiah 53 and understand that the Messiah was not a warrior king like David. Yet they could also read Psalm 2, Psalm 110 or Numbers 24:17-19 and see the Messiah as one who would deliver them from their enemies. From what I read in the gospels people mainly were looking for a deliverer like Moses or David. A Messiah who would save them from oppression and not from their sin.
ReplyDeleteMy view is that people have always been born again by grace through faith. It has always been a simple yes to the moving of the Spirit in ones life. To believe in Jesus is to believe in God. So, in a sense, the OT saints believed in Jesus even though they did not understand the concept of the Trinity or the idea that he is God the Son.
I do not see the Suffering Servant and the Conquering Messiah as contraries but as part of the same package. The Suffering Servant takes place at the first coming and the Conquering Messiah at the second. I do not blame the disciples or the OT saints for not being clear on exactly how it fit together. But I see every indication they saw forgiveness of sin and the conquest as being in involved. They were looking for more then a mere earthly kingdom, but one that involved perfect peace and righteousness.
DeleteI agree the OT saints would not have understood the Trinity. But I believe that the belief in God required here is more than the belief in God's existence, but a belief in His offer of eternal life. Jesus relates this back to the cross under the figure of the serpent on a pole in the wilderness.
"I see every indication they saw forgiveness of sin and the conquest as being in involved."
ReplyDeleteWhere do you see the disciples espousing that view before Pentecost? The disciples wanted to call fire down from heaven and even after 3 years of ministry Peter cut of the ear of a man with a sword. Doubtful that these men heard Jesus' words about loving or forgiving their enemies. In the beginning of Acts they still thought that Jesus would restore Israel. So it is doubtful that they had forgiveness of sin on their mind.
Regarding the 'Conquering Messiah', I do see that the disciples wanted that kind of deliverer. Even after the resurrection (Acts 1:6) they were asking Jesus “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” Interesting how this mindset seemed to fade after the baptism of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost. I think that the Holy Spirit makes the difference. Frankly, I am not looking for a 'Conquering Messiah'. I believe that God's kingdom is here and it comes every time we are moved by the Spirit and love like he loves.
I never said anything about "belief in God's existence". Eternal life begins before death. It is obvious as we read the OT that people like Moses, Samuel, David and others were born again and had a relationship with God. Doubtful that these understood the concept of eternal life but obviously loved God with all of their hearts, minds and strength.
I do not see the Conquering Messiah as an error but as merely another side of the same coin. The New Testament repeatedly promises that Christ will come again and reign with peace and righteousness (Matthew 25:41-46; John 5:25-29; Acts 3:20,21; Revelation 21:1-7). Jesus does not tell the apostles they are wrong, but that the time is not yet (Acts 1:6,7). It is hard to know exactly what the disciples knew when, but just because they went about things the wrong way does not mean they were totally wrong on the concept. As mentioned before Peter, Zacharias and John the Baptist show some evidence of understanding.
DeleteI do not claim to know what everyone in the OT knew, but I have already quoted a number of verses that show they had a concept of God overcoming sin and death. I agree that the OT saints show the work of God in their lives. But in the NT a real change in life is a result of faith and that faith is connected to God's promise of salvation from sin (Ephesians 2:8-10; Hebrews 11; Galatians 2:15-21).
I would expect this same principle to apply in the OT (Genesis 15:6; Habakkuk 2:4; Psalms 2:12)
Seems like we have both articulated our views and I am blessed because we have Mike. It is wonderful to be able to discuss issues as these in a friendly forum. Each time we discuss I come away better informed and maybe (that is a big maybe) a bit wiser. Hope one day we will be able to discuss over a cup of coffee? Even if it is of a heavenly variety. Blessings to you my friend.
ReplyDeleteI look forward to that cup of coffee whenever we may be able to drink it.
DeleteBlessings to you in return.