Saturday, August 4, 2012

Old Erich Proverb - Grace

I believe in free grace; that is what grace means.
Posted by at
Labels:

17 comments:

  1. kc bobAugust 5, 2012 at 4:11 PM

    I wonder how that definition lines up with the idea of "sovereign grace" that I read sometimes about?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 5, 2012 at 7:37 PM

      I would say that genuine sovereign grace is the most absolutely free type of grace. But not everyone who affirms it necessarily sees it this way.

      Delete
  2. kc bobAugust 6, 2012 at 7:08 AM

    The wiki came up with this definition for sovereign grace:

    "irresistible Grace (or efficacious grace) is a doctrine in Christian theology particularly associated with Calvinism, which teaches that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying ..."

    I suggest that a grace that cannot be resisted is not free grace. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 6, 2012 at 6:02 PM

      I would reply that grace which has no prior requirement but is totally unconditional is absolutely free. But perhaps we have different definitions of free.

      Delete
  3. kc bobAugust 7, 2012 at 6:55 AM

    How does "no prior requirement" square with the idea of irresistible grace? To me is paints God as capricious if He gives grace with no concern for how a person will respond to his grace.

    Consider Mike how this might apply to something like slavery in colonial America. Freedom was a grace given to the elect (i.e. citizens) but not those (i.e. the slaves) deemed unworthy of that grace. The sovereign (i.e. the king) was absolutely and categorically wrong.

    My thinking is that a grace given only to some is not really free or even divine grace at all. It paints God in the same light as a sovereign who chooses to keep some in bondage while he chooses to allow others to be free. It is a dark image of God - in my thinking anyways. :)

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 7, 2012 at 9:06 PM

      It sounds like your issue is not so much freeness as fairness. I, at least, have no problem with the idea that God should freely and unconditionally act in grace toward those who do not deserve it. I also personally have no problem with the idea that God would irresistibly draw to Himself those who would otherwise not come. But I do struggle over why God does not choose everyone. I sympathize with one of my seminary professors, who said he would like to be a universalist but the Bible would not let him. But I have long ago decided on this and a number of other things that I do not always understand why God does what He does. I believe God chooses, because I believe the Scripture teaches God chooses. I do believe this represents the freest concept of grace because there is nothing we do to obtain it. But when it comes to the fairness issue, I admit I do not have an easy answer:)

      Delete
  4. kc bobAugust 8, 2012 at 6:16 AM

    How can it be said that one is free if God draws that one to Himself and that person has no power to resist?

    I sometimes think that saying yes to the Holy Spirit (yes to grace) is like Warren Buffet coming to my door with a gift/check for a billion dollars. I cash the check and then go around bragging about how I earned the undeserved gift just because I cashed the check. No one can ever really boast about or take credit for accepting an unearned and undeserved gift of grace. In contrast, IMO it is erroneous to think that the gift does not have to be received (i.e. the check cashed) by the recipient.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 8, 2012 at 6:33 PM

      I fully agree that the check needs to be received. I would however claim that to receive it requires a work of God in our life (John 6:44;Acts 13:38; Romans 3:11). I would agree we cannot deserve a free gift. I would merely assert we deserve it even less then that.

      Delete
  5. kc bobAugust 9, 2012 at 6:08 AM

    I agree with these verses you reference Mike ...

    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44 ESV)

    Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, (Acts 13:38 ESV)

    no one understands; no one seeks for God (Romans 3:11 ESV)

    ... but I in no way see how the Father drawing a person (i.e. offering him the gift) mandates that the person will say a simple yes to his offer. IMO, an aspect of grace means that the recipient is free to accept or refuse the gift.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 9, 2012 at 5:58 PM

      The verses I quoted (there was a typo Acts 13:38 should be 13:48, I apologize for that) were to show that we need a a work in our life by God to come to Him. But in defense of the fact those who God works in do come I would offer the following verses.

      "... and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Acts 13:48 (NASB)

      "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37 (NASB)

      "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him...." Ephesians 1:4 NASB

      Delete
  6. kc bobAugust 10, 2012 at 6:03 AM

    My thinking is that election or selection does not mean that the recipient of the gift does not need to respond. As God exists outside of time He is able to elect based on his foreknowledge of the recipients response. Again, one cannot take credit for simply saying yes - it is all grace. And no would say that living for Christ is not all about grace - yet no one says that we do not have a part in following God.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 10, 2012 at 7:16 PM

      Having held both views I am aware that foreknowledge is the standard answer on the issue of election. My problem with that is if I foreknow something that is going to happen (say who is going to win a sporting event) does it make sense to say I chose it. Again I do not deny we choose, but would say our choice is the result of God's choice.

      Delete
  7. kc bobAugust 11, 2012 at 6:19 AM

    If you choose to eat something that you foreknow that you will enjoy did you not choose to eat it? If you bet on a game because you foreknew the outcome did you not choose the team that wins?

    If God, as you infer, forces us to say yes because he has chosen us then there is no freedom because that sort of grace does not allow us the freedom to say no.

    In my view, God calls all to a 'relationship' with him but He only chooses those who say a simple yes. Would a marriage be a marriage if the woman was not able to say no to the proposal? Is not a relationship (with God or your spouse) a two-way proposition? Can a 'relationship' exist without the unforced consent of the other?

    Is love that is not optional really love at all? Does God force us into a loving relationship with him? In my view our choice is in response to God's love. We love because He first loved us and gave his son. He loves the whole world and wants to be loved in return.

    If grace and love are not free then they are not grace and love as I understand those words.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 11, 2012 at 2:27 PM

    I am not clear how your foreknowing examples apply here. They seen be about my choosing to do something because I foreknow something about it. But I do not see how that applies to God foreknowing something I will do.

    I do not think there is any human analogy that perfectly captures that relationship of creature to creator. I do not believe God simply forces us to do things, but I also believe the relationship between us and a sovereign God is more complicated then any human relationship. But I am not sure I can convince someone to accept God's sovereignty who simply regards it as repugnant. We may have to just agree to disagree and pray God will grant whichever of us is wrong more wisdom.

    ReplyDelete
  9. kc bobAugust 11, 2012 at 3:28 PM

    This comment has been removed by the author.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. kc bobAugust 11, 2012 at 4:25 PM

      I think that my last comment was an over-reaction Mike so I deleted it. I am okay to agree to disagree.

      Blessings, Bob

      Delete
  10. Mike Erich the Mad TheologianAugust 11, 2012 at 5:39 PM

    I missed your deleted comment whatever it may have been.

    Blessings, Mike

    ReplyDelete

Subscribe to: Post Comments (Atom)